Veronica Meadows
What's next for Mark Lee? His housing development plans for the Las Positas corrdior are laudable for their efforts to clean the creek area but not so laudable for the size and scope of the homes. It seems he could do the following:
1) Come back to council with a scaled down version with the project still dependent on their annexation.
2) Go to the County and spend several more years chasing approval...
What would you do?
1) Come back to council with a scaled down version with the project still dependent on their annexation.
2) Go to the County and spend several more years chasing approval...
What would you do?
posted by Sara De la Guerra | 3/09/2006 06:29:00 AM
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76 Comments:
Hmmmmmm, let's see:
Santa Barbara city council: 7 Democrats, some pretty well left.
County Board of Supervisors: 3 Republicans not afraid of voting for market rate housing; 2 Democrats, with Rose on her way out.
Hmmmmmm.....
Mark Lee could try to get County approval for his 20+ McMansions directly against the wishes of the City, which would complain about the traffic, water pollution, landslides, and other burdens that project would foist directly onto the City residents. Then, the City would respond by NOT approving any bridge to access the McMansions and by NOT connecting the project up to water and sewer.
AND, even Joni Gray and Joe Centeno on the Board of Supervisors would defer to the wishes of a Second District Supervisor if, for any reason, it makes good politics to keep the South Coast Supervisors from messing around with small and similar neighborhood-scale projects in Orcutt and Santa Maria.
Those Veronica McMansions are not going anywhere through a County review process, although a Supervisor Secord would be Lee's best friend for any attempt at County approval of such a project. And which Supe candidate would be Lee's worst enemy?
Go ahead and kvetch in future comments here about that! But please make the slightest attempt to stay on point for the original intent of this blog subject related to Lee and Veronica.
Good thing Das and his supporters are keep away from innuendo regarding what another candidate might do. Mc Mansions, nice touch.
"McMansion" is a reference word that has been in the vernacular of urban planners for years. It goes along with "mondo-condo" and similar references.
City council members (and not Das as one of them) have been referring for several years to the housing proposed by Lee for the Veronica site as McMansions. It is a common planning strategy for how to approve something for a site while minimizing the various traffic and environmental impacts... fewer and bigger houses yield as much money for the developer as more and smaller houses, while usually reducing the impacts. However, McMansions and bigger generate far more traffic than the "single family" usually does, when adding all the gardeners, pool boys, home office deliveries, baby sitters, house cleaners, personal assistants, and more.
Oh, I get it, this is a class war issue. Thanks for the clarification. And the lesson on market economics. So glad to have your expertise and resentment leading the way. "gardeners and pool boys".
I am just feeling bitter, that's all.
Even Iya Falcone complained that the maps were totally confusing and misleading during the applicant presentation.
What would I do? If I were as civic-minded as Mark Lee is described - and as nice as he has seemed, I would offer to donate the land to the city (or a non-profit that would donate to the city) on condition it be kept in healthy lung condition — and if money were raised to pay me for 1) purchase and holding costs, those are specific costs, ie. taxes, etc., 2) the costs incurred in my various proposals --- these would be my net costs, after tax benefits and other considerations and 3) a reasonable percentage equivalent to whatever would be my return on the money had it been invested in a savings account for the last 20 - or whatever - years he has held the property.
How generous of you!
I have no idea what I'd do if I were Mark Lee. The problem is not that the project was turned down. The problem is that he has been working with local government for many years, invested a lot of time and money, and then got turned down.
I am personally glad that both this project and the State St. Lofts were not approved as submitted, but it seems as though in both cases the developers/architects submitted projects that went through standard local reviews. Both men played by the rules, felt encouraged by the responses they got, and then got turned down at the last minute. And as a bonus, they got vilified personally by various opponents of the projects.
At what point in the process did it become unacceptable to build luxury homes in one of the greenbelt areas? Evidently it was possible for the first six years of planning, but not after that. And for Berkus, his mixed-use project was a good idea to City staff and the planning committee, but became a bad idea at literally the last hour.
Someone or some group has to have the final say on any project, but the process here needs to be more transparent all along the way. And decent people should not be strung along by official local agencies and then turned down (and insulted) right at the end.
The public testimony at City Council is pretty much a show that must be performed. It was clear from the lengthy, detailed responses of Council members to Berkus that they had decided how they were voting before any public testimony.
I am a Das supporter and I am good with so called "class warfare" What is wrong with making the unjustly rich pay their fair share? What right does that guy have to build 20 mansions for out of area richies? When will we all wake up and realize we must live for the collective good of all and not just the rich.
Good!! Just make that the centerpiece of your opposition instead of baloney about Steelhead and traffic. We can mitigate most of those things. Nobody can mitigate your resentment. By the way I hope all of you against these projects are all homegrown Santa Barbarans of at least a couple of generations. Right? Because it was a hell of a lot less crowded and cheaper then. But thanks for being upfront about it, its about time.
Honesty can be liberating. Try it. This country has always run in cycles where the rich vitimize the poor. Maybe by electing Das we can even the playing field a little bit.
It's finally coming out. Das is the chosen one. He can level the cyclical uneven field that is the American experience, perhaps heal the creeks and make the dead walk, at the same time! This isn't a campaign, it a messianic movement.
What is wrong is believeing in something or someone. Das is special, once in a lifetime leader. You had your reagan we have our Das.
Definition of Socialism: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.
Will the Das followers be urging him to fold this information into his campaign materials? Or maybe this sort of thing is better left unsaid...at least until after the election.
we don't need gurus with blindly loyal devotees......we need hard workers whose egos aren't central to their public service. and whose principles are at least somewhat consistent. How can Das on the one hand pander to CSP and claim to fight with the middle/upplemiddle class neighbors to "preserve" what they have yet claim to oppose a project for its lack of affordability.
Let's try to keep the comments to the topic at hand -- what would you do if your were Mark Lee?
Not everything is about the second district guys! Please?
Sorry Sara---but Veronica Meadows IS in the 2nd District and one of the 2nd Dist CANDIDATES voted the project down yesterday.........how much closer to the topic can we get?
Re: 10:25 and being generous: Mr. Lee was described as follows: "As had been his style during meetings before the Planning Commission, Mr. Lee portrayed himself as a generous developer who was seeking to restore the creek, maintain a nearby city park, create walking trails and make other public improvements because of his commitment to the city."
I can't imagine spending so much time on this or more time on it, arguing for housing for multimillionaires. It's not as though he (or any other landowner, lucky enough to buy before the escalation) has created the value of the land. If I were Lee, I'd just move on --- and offer the land to the city, on condition money be raised to pay my reasonable costs.
I understood his day job is as an asbestos and other toxic substances-removal contractor. At the very least, if he intends to hang with this, he's got years ahead, whether county or city. Toxic, either way.
Exactly right. Every vote and stance can legitmately be seen as trying to influence the 2nd district vote. It was no accident that his City Council endorsement brochure photo overlooked the land where the Lee projects sits. By the way, how about " you had your reagan we have our Das" ?Numero Uno, he wasn't "my" Reagan" by a long shot. Not everyone who finds Das annoying is a Reaganite. Numero Dos, Das=Reagan is apparently the mindset of his Moonies. Why stop at Supervisor>Assembly>Governor. Take me to the top President Williams!
What Mark Lee and anyone with a project with the City should do is stop. The planning department would come to a standstill, planning commisssion would have nothing to do, City would save money with the layoffs that would occur. Then the anger might focus on the grandstanding political folks who make people jump through every hoop, stand up there with their hat in hand and get shot down anyway. After following the City's own rules and guidelines! Of course without all the time and money spent by the developers a lot of private industry jobs would dry up and blow away as well. The people would be up in arms. A strike can work both ways. Wait, I've been at the bong again. I know its only a dream but this blog has been pretty utopian today.
So much for Berkus, and now so much for Mark Lee. Neither has any real place to go before slowly drowning under all of the city caused "soft costs" (Amerikaner et. al. do not come cheap) and under the soaring building costs if they are lucky enough to get some kind of approval (can you say, Granada Garage, Cottage Hospital).
Who's up next? Whole Foods on upper State Street? Traffic through the roof. Still no comprehensive overall plan. May not be a chi chi expensive organic store forever--could be auto parts some day. Whack it.
Sandman on upper state. If not lots of affordable housing....
If i was Mark Lee I would go to the county where I have heard has welcomed him with open arms. He has three votes for more homes and they are excitec about fixing the creek. He has a certified EIR already - needs some reworking for county standards and he is off to build his homes. This would allow Joni, Joe and Brooks to show their planning department works and to get Arenda numbers without impacting Noleta.
The problems with Berkus and the noleta projects are - too dense, neighbors oppose and there is no good enironmental reason to support.
So Vernonica Meadows:
Neighbors strongly support. In fact more than two dozen attended the hearing.
Very low density - counting all 50 acres it is one home every two acres not 20 homes every acre. Using just the 15 acres around the homes it is about 1.5 homes per acre not 15 or 20.
No traffic impacts. Improves ped circulation to the beach and park.
Creates a model solution to a ten year old creek and ocean pollution and erosion problem.
So Berkus too dense. Veronica too expensive?
Total BS.
The issue is that Das is calling the shots because the mayor is not able to lead herself. Iya and Helene are running for mayor and afraid to make anyone or anythng angry. Brian and Grant vote based on facts and logic not fear and politics. Roger rolled on this one after Das beat on him - watched Das work him all day at the hearing.
If you live on Alan Road or anywhere withing our neighborhood you support this project. Of course we like it that Lee did not propose to use our road but more important he was improving the flow of the creek that may take out our homes some day if nothing is done.
Many of us on Alan Road feel if the creek wipes out our homes we can and will sue the city if they do not improve it similar to what Lee proposed or let him do so. In fact, a number of us are looking at what this does to our property values just knowing the impacts and the city doing nothing.
I for one am a life long liberal democrat, Sierra Club member since college, donor to EDC in Santa Barbara and today I would do anything to defeat Das and I am so disappointed in Falcone and the Mayor that I would run against them.
Shocking vote - they will do nothing to protect our homes and now they leave us to wait for a creek type La Conchita to take place right here.
See you in court city of Santa Barbara.
The great irony of the whole hearing as I watched this from my city hall office yesterday is how Das talked about spin after Lee and Amerikaner repeated the facts in a true professional manner that the staff had stated earlier - same facts better presentation (except for Rob Dayton) and then Das puts up totally misleading photos that he was forced to apologize for after Amerikaner and Falcone pointed out Das was totally wrong.
And who spun? Lee gave facts and Das lied.
What does all this mean to Bermants plans for 7 times the homes at Hillside house just up from Veronica Meadows? Same deal - more homes?
Hey Das what is your opinion of that?
Hey al road - you want us to bail you out of your home - was it a surprise that there was a creek there when you moved in - get a life you knew it - stop crying. What is great about Das is he knows you and your little million dollar house falling into the creek is your problem - call Allstate. But Das is there for the union and little guys who cannot afford the house by the creek.
To "Al Road" and others of similar bent:
The Davies-Lee spin machine spun you good. Their so-called creek restoration project actually would install more huge boulders and other revetment along the sides of the creek channel. Just look at their plans and what they said in the actual City Council and prior Planning Commission meetings. Their hired-gun consultants even showed pictures and used the actual word: REVETMENT. Such a project actually speeds up the flow of water in the creek and accelerates erosion downstream. These are basic fluvial principals. Look it up.
Their so-called creek restoration would protect their new mansion homes and road, while increasing erosion along the backs of the lots along Alan Road.
The project is nearly killed. Why do the Alan Road neighbors still complain?
_____________________________
Perceptioneer said...
I am just feeling bitter, that's all.
Even Iya Falcone complained that the maps were totally confusing and misleading during the applicant presentation.
_______________________________________
Really? Watch the tape Perceptioneer - Funny Das said that - Iya said Das' photos where misleading and later Das explained they were not on the property but he was trying to make a point.
So Iya said nothing attacking Lee and Steve Americaner's presentation said Mr. Willaims photos where misleading - that being Das. She agreed with Das' vote but was as ill as everyone else by his Perceptioneering.
Iya Falcone said plainly during her remarks towards the end that the maps presented during the presentation by the applicant were totally misleading maps and plan. She probably even used more damning words.
The political point is that Lee and his consultants reached and spun, and perceptioneered, far too much and it backfired so much that Iya, as a usual Friend of Davies, even found fault and saw through this spin and puffing.
Valerio did you go to the hearing? DId you see the creek guys presentation? He was very clear that what he proposed slowed the creek down - he showed existing REVETMENTs that had failed (one on my property) and he showed his natural creek restoration plan - go ahead and oppose Valerio but do not lie. You sound like Das. And I did not see Davies making a presentation - did I miss that too?
Get the real facts as you are the only one spinning.
I watched the whole hearing. I live there and I have watched the project for six years and the maps and plans where the same ones in the EIR and the photosim was the same one the city used. Not sure if I understand Iya any more either. She was so beaten up by Das in the last election that she left her backbone back in June of 05.
The real spin was Das - he wanted to win this bad for his buddie Bermant.
Alan Road advocate:
I know this is just crazy, but sometimes hired-gun consultants design a project one way to suit the technical needs of their high-paying clients, then they tell other people who are not experts something different along the lines of what that audience wants to hear. Perhaps a flivual expert who is not beholden to Mark Lee might draw a different conclusion?
Funny how the potential to garner $10 million in profit from the sale of 20 McMansions can make people be less than candid when talking to the neighbors of the project site.
That guy Pritchett, who keeps getting quoted in the Newspress, seems to know what he is talking about. Maybe that creek could be something different and better than what Lee was trying to sell to the City Council?
Valerio said...
To "Al Road" and others of similar bent:
- - -
The project is nearly killed. Why do the Alan Road neighbors still complain?
We complain as we hear council members say they listen to the neighbors and turn down projects like berkus because of neighbors and here we are the neighbors and we strongly support this project because it is good - there is nothing wrong with it at - unless you just are against all new homes and Lee making money - if that is it just admit it - there is no spin here.
You insult me and more than 100 neighbors thinking we are so stupid we can be spun - have some respect and grow up. Look at the facts and talk to the real people here not the knee jerk anti-growth.
My eyes have been opened by this to never trust people like you again without getting the real facts - once I trusted the so-called environmental community - now I verify.
Valerio
Yesterday the city parks and creeks signed off on the restoration as a good idea. We are not dumb hicks because we think before we speak. Of course we looked into Lee's creek guy - his record is flawless - we called cities and govenment agencies and the guy is revered as not only an expert but as THE expert and natural restoration. Your point is that he sold out his entire reputation for one job. That is equally as beleiveable as we are all stupid on Alan Road and for six years have not asked for independent review or looked into the plan ourselves.
See the thing it seems I am learing tonight from you and all the Dasses is that if you disagree you are dumb or on Lee's payroll.
You are insulting and shallow in your arguments.
Bermant is NOT a buddy of Das, but Bermant is a Friend of Iya, and fat contributor. Bermant has another project in the works up the road... a project that will generate plenty of its own traffic and that now will be easier to accomodate with the Veronica housing project proposal now gone.
Do your homework for a change if you are going to run with the Big Dogs here.
Das opposes the project by Bermant for San Marcos Foothills, another huge crop of McMansions in Second District Noleta-land.
With this project out of the way maybe Jill Zackery and the Creeks Committee can do something for real about the creeks.
Pritchett mentioned above has no ideas to fix our creeks he is simply anti growth - not what I am looking for - fix our creeks is easy with more than 2 million per year but nothing happens.
Das opposes everything and that is why Bermant is his buddy on this - kill Veronica and make room for Hillside - just as you said. San Marcos is done - Das can oppose all he wants. Does Das also oppose the Camino Real? Makes about the same sense.
Sorry and the big dogs are ? You ??
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"Yesterday the city parks and creeks signed off on the restoration as a good idea."
Really?
Here is what "creeks" said to the Newspress reporter in the article published on March 5:
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Jill Zachary, the city's creeks program manager, said if her department were to lead efforts to restore the creek, there would be a different focus.
"Is this the restoration project that the city would do? I don't have an answer to that," Ms. Zachary said. "But our project would not involve land development. Our restoration would focus on the creek."
She said that the city has long had the goal to restore Arroyo Burro Creek. The creeks program has a $2.4 million [annual] budget.
"It has been part of my work program to implement a restoration plan there," Ms. Zachary said. "We had intended to do a community outreach and vision process for that parcel, but we haven't obviously done that because of the Veronica Meadows proposal. There is a tremendous amount of community interest in restoring the creek there."
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Valerio -
And on March 5th or anytime did she - Jill do nothing ever say the creek restoration was not good - parks signed off on it - the News Press qoute above says nothing about not signing off - it says Jill would like to get Lees property and restore the creek. Yet after more than five years she has been unable to fix the creek at all and never responds to our calls or request. She did not oppose the restoration as her boss is in support.
If she could buy the Lee property and fix the creek we would be all in favor on Alan Road but we have zero confidence that she will ever get anything done nor will Lee sell.
Again Valerio you try to make me and others who disagree dumb and you fail - Jill did support the restoration as that was the cities position.
Also Valerio "creeks" cannot do anything without Lee or all of us along Alan Road as we own the creek in most areas - and she has never asked and told us and others that she can do nothing to help fix our part of the creek as it is privately owned. The city owns some of the creek along Lee's property but he owns the most - they could not do without him.
I love this from your post:
"Is this the restoration project that the city would do? I don't have an answer to that," Ms. Zachary said. "But our project would not involve land development. Our restoration would focus on the creek."
" . . . I do not have an answer to that." And that is because her department supports Lee's resortation plan.
And how about this . .
"But our project would not involve land development. Our restoration would focus on the creek."
Profound as there is not city land to create any develpment.
The city has put more than 40 bridges over this creek and has channelized the creek. And at mission creek in five years and more than $10 million they have done vitually nothing other than street sweeping and study grants and Jills salary.
Lee's property is worthless now and so the city can buy it cheap and then fix the creek and create a park.
The discussion here has been as enlighting as the city council meeting yesterday. What I have learned tonight:
1. If you disagree with Das or his surrogate here Valerio you must be stupid.
2. If you want to make money you need to be beaten
3. Facts are not necessary
4. Name calling is what you do when you lose on the facts
5. I have no rights because I own a home and therefore must be rich
6. I am embarassed to be an environmentalist in this town
Good night
Das bringing the community together one dissatisfied constituent at a time. Does he have an idea of the groundswell of anger building among people he thinks he has for the 2nd?
Isn't this whole atmosphere becoming resonant of the City Council race? Think how bad it will get now that Das is a candidate and not just a behind the scenes guy? I know, I know, he pledged his clean campaign stuff, but he will let the venom fly in his name if this blog is any indication. By the way pretty cute of Valerio the pretend to not know who Pritchett is.
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No, Williams is not doing that. It's the people who don't like him, detest him, are jealous of him ... I don't what - who are turning SB into a big dysfunctional family - as though we weren't anyway. ;)
Back to the Veronica Meadows: anyone know if the hearing will be (re) televised?
As for the Alan Road people, my understanding was that most of the people on that road supported the project ONLY if there were a bridge over to Las Positas and "their" road remained a dead end (aka the more upscale "cul de sac".)
But the bridge has possibilities of creating serious enviro. problems with the creek. The ONLY reason for the bridge was to buy off the Alan Road people.
What say, Al Road, would you and your neighbors still be so supportive or supportive at all if there were NOT a bridge?
Seems to me, watching these issues, most opposition to (or support of) projects is self-interest, not too far removed from "baby want...."
If Mark Lee is so committed to cleaning the creek here is the best solution: show your desire to heal our earth by cleaning up the creek first, then came back and talk about maybe building a few affordable homes.
Hey anon 3:24 - How about you? Lee spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to create a plan to restore the creek - how about you paying to do it then we can talk.
I love the arm chair property owners - may be some day you can get out of the bleachers of life and play a role.
New to this issue but after the dust last night I called friends in neighborhood and looked at the city reports.
I worry about us. We need a living wage, we need to protect environment but do we need to totally crazy against everything?
This seems to be a great idea. The creek is a mess and 23 homes are nothing.
i read the comments above and I am sicked - as liberals or progressives are we suppose to hate and name call.
The recent discourse is awful - talking about peeing on buildings and attack the charater of people because we disagree.
It is awful. It is childish. Lets grow up and act like addults.
Would Alan Road support Lee without the most environmentally sensitive bridge ever built in Santa Barbara County other than the 154 span bridge?
For me the answer is yes. I want the bridge but I want the creek improvements more and I want to reward a man who keeps his word even though it hurts him.
Mark Lee is a quality man and his project is a great project - I like the bridge but now I like the project.
More than anything I am deeply upset with the treatment of Lee by those opposed and by the city council.
Not sure if my neighbors agree but I am with Lee to the end.
Oh forgot to contrast Lee with Das Williams.
Every time I have called Lee with a question I get an honest answer.
Every time anyone on Alan Road has called or written Das Williams we get nothing.
Das Williams has used us and ignored us.
Das has lots of Bermant and Davies money so in that respect he and Iya are quite similar. Bermant and Das are buddies. Das and Davies are buddies.
12:19 AM - And Rose/Wolf have taken Bermant money. Buttney had Bermant's political boy working full time for weeks for him for free. Bermant owns Iya. Now he has a problem a lot of people on different sides.
I watched the hearing, and Mark Lee won every argument with the facts. Rather than argue based on the facts, all Das could muster was a cheap shot dismissing the facts as "spin" - then putting up incredibly misleading photos that even Iya went out of her way to denounce. (The idea that Iya was talking about the applicant presentation is just plain wrong.) But her vote does not make sense - the only explanation is she promised something to Bermant - 10:52 is on the mark there.
The tragedy is that a very low density project with modest-sized homes - not mansions - that will create a model creek restoration and important new walking and biking connections has been shot down. The silver lining is that the true motivations of the council have been smoked-out. On the one hand, you have class warfare social engineering by Das and his cronies like Pritchett. They normally hide behind the neighborhoods or some environmental issue, but in this case when the neighboorhood and environment are better with the project, we got to see the reality. Then on the other hand you have Iya, unable to take a stand on principle because she must owe someone a favor. Not impressive at all.
Going to the county is a no-brainer - the city must provide sewer and water, and the votes are there for even more homes.
If one wants to watch/tape the hearing, it will be rerun on Channel 18 on Monday at 9 am - don't know if it is the entire hearing since it is scheduled 9-12.
While the Das Moonies fight the class war, his website invites you to his Hope Ranch Fundraiser. I wonder if anyone will trouble his hosts about their Mc Mansion? Or ask where they made their pile of dough? And why they aren't giving it away? Just a thought.
You don't get it. Das is Robin Hood, and he steels from the rich (including his campaign donors) and gives it to the poor (like our union workers.) So what if he gets a few five figure checks in Hope Ranch if its for the good of Santa Barbara's Proletariat. Viva Das!
If Das runs a hypocritical campaign, does it still qualify as "clean"?
I guess we're still trying to figure out what the definition of "is" is.
So nice most comments here are on-point with the intended subject:
should or should not, or will or will not, Mark Lee try his housing project again under County approval instead of the City of Santa Barbara?????
Why would Lee try his project again if the City does not allow him to build a bridge across the City property?
11:42 above - makes sense. Very on point and scary that Iya and others have some unknown reason for killing a project our neighborhood supports and benefits the entire environment.
It is impossible to figure out what and why the council was not doing back flips for this project. Low density, a disturbed site, a benefit to the community and the environment.
As a neighbor of a creek in Santa Barbara it is shocking how they have been neglected - even more since we have this so called creeks committee.
We want action - we want a clean and safe creek - we do not want this creek to wipe out our homes. And as those closest to the new development we strongly support it.
Again what is the fix? Is it the Bermant guy I keep reading about - I suggest the DA investigate who he is giving money to or what he is doing.
Something stinks.
Mark Lee will be welcome with open arms to the county.
What is the biggest issue in the county right now? Meeting the state manadated new homes. In the county Lee will have to add affordable to the project as he did at the city before he was asked to remove them.
The county needs Lees numbers and homes. Lee needs the county. And the city has no choice but to provide water and sewer - not doing so would be a taking of Lees rights.
And then the city of Santa Barbara gets a Goleta mentality sure to lose law suit.
Mark Lee can go home and build in Riverside. He needs to heal our earth first, then talk about a few homes.
He can apparently only heal our earth if her does it with affordable housing . Can't make money and heal our earth. Is that the royal "our"? Does anyone believe that anything Mark Lee proposed would have been approved with the type of resentment filled class warriors like old 1:57 growwing in influence?
Nobody has the " right" to build on thier property if it hurts the collective good.
Oh boy.
When Das is elected he will put the earth first and the profits of man a distant second.
dream on, 157
dream on, 157
wow, dream on 157. dude you really know how to put yourthoughts into words.
1:57 and Putin seem to be moving in the same collective direction
Show me where he has the right to build. Show me where it says he can build on this property.
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